Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

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elasto
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:26 am UTC

Ormurinn wrote:It's not a "perception" that immigration ran rampant while labour was in power, it''s just a fact - the rate of immigration increased massively over those years, and there have been real negative consequences for the native people in places like Leicester, Bradford, Oldham and the like.


Let's be clear: It's a fact that it increased massively. It's an opinion that it ran rampant. An opinion you clearly hold, and an opinion that clearly sells newspapers. (But then, sadly, anti-foreigner sentiment usually does the world over)

'Running rampant' is a term that holds negative connotations, and I'd argue a big influx of foreigners to the UK is a net positive overall. Which is not to say there are no negative side-effects, which is what you seem to think I'm saying, merely that the positive outweigh the negative. For example, because we have become so top-heavy in terms of demographics, with the ratio of pensioners to workers becoming ever more unsustainable, nothing counterbalances that better than when young, fit, healthy workers arrive from Europe, work a few years and then return home without collecting a pension themselves. Which is exactly what we've seen happen.

I'm in complete agreement with you RE the effects of redistributing the tax money back into those areas, but that wouldn't have been enough. Theres also the effect of the immigration being so concentrated over such a short time - if the immigration of the last ten years had occurred over thirty there'd be less of an issue, but the short timescale and establishment commitment to multiculturalism have impeded assimilation, to the extent that the hearts of many communities have been replaced with ethnically-exclusive ghettoes.

Ethnically-exclusive ghettoes are a problem with human nature - something that's immoral whether being practised by a native or a foreigner - and it's a problem nowhere in the world has solved; It can only really be tempered through education - and, ironically, the solution is partly the same as the problem: If people regularly encounter others of different ethnicity they will begin to stop fearing difference - realising that, actually, humans are broadly the same the world over.

But fair point. I don't have an issue with, for example, an English test before allowing people to live and work in the UK, meaning they don't feel forced to settle around others speaking the same language.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Ormurinn » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:49 am UTC

elasto wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:It's not a "perception" that immigration ran rampant while labour was in power, it''s just a fact - the rate of immigration increased massively over those years, and there have been real negative consequences for the native people in places like Leicester, Bradford, Oldham and the like.


Let's be clear: It's a fact that it increased massively. It's an opinion that it ran rampant. An opinion you clearly hold, and an opinion that clearly sells newspapers. (But then, sadly, anti-foreigner sentiment usually does the world over)

'Running rampant' is a term that holds negative connotations, and I'd argue a big influx of foreigners to the UK is a net positive overall. Which is not to say there are no negative side-effects, which is what you seem to think I'm saying, merely that the positive outweigh the negative. For example, because we have become so top-heavy in terms of demographics, with the ratio of pensioners to workers becoming ever more unsustainable, nothing counterbalances that better than when young, fit, healthy workers arrive from Europe, work a few years and then return home without collecting a pension themselves. Which is exactly what we've seen happen.

I'm in complete agreement with you RE the effects of redistributing the tax money back into those areas, but that wouldn't have been enough. Theres also the effect of the immigration being so concentrated over such a short time - if the immigration of the last ten years had occurred over thirty there'd be less of an issue, but the short timescale and establishment commitment to multiculturalism have impeded assimilation, to the extent that the hearts of many communities have been replaced with ethnically-exclusive ghettoes.

Ethnically-exclusive ghettoes are a problem with human nature - something that's immoral whether being practised by a native or a foreigner - and it's a problem nowhere in the world has solved; It can only really be tempered through education - and, ironically, the solution is partly the same as the problem: If people regularly encounter others of different ethnicity they will begin to stop fearing difference - realising that, actually, humans are broadly the same the world over.

But fair point. I don't have an issue with, for example, an English test before allowing people to live and work in the UK, meaning they don't feel forced to settle around others speaking the same language.


You're absolutely right about the demographic effects of inter-european immigration. I didn't consider the rhetorical effects of the term "running rampant" - If you're happy to agree with the numbers I'm happy to use a more neutral term.

I wouldn't say that regular encounters with other ethnicities is likely to lead to more tolerant individuals, If anything I've observed the opposite; anti-immigrant sentiment is much more common in white working-class areas that experience the negative effects of immigration, and much less common in the areas that only experience the positives of cheap labour and new restaurants.

I'm glad you'd accept basic limits on people coming to the U.K. All most people want is an Australian-style system where to come to the country you have to demonstrate you'll be good for it as a whole.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:10 pm UTC

A blast near Tripton mosque is being treated as a terrorist incident. It's the same day as Fusilier Lee Rigby's funeral (incidentally it seems to be a long time for funeral - is that because it needed a coroner's inquest?), so the two are being treated as linked.

Apparently the bomb went off at 1pm, which was when the mosque should have been full, but as it's Ramadan it didn't fill up until 2.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby EMTP » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:06 pm UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:I don't understand the call for so-called representatives of certain religious or ethnic groups to publicly denounce things they already obviously disapprove of. Anyone convinced they would endorse it would probably also be convinced they were lying to save face. All you're doing is turning the spotlight away from the perpetrator.


It's purely a power thing. And a sneaky way to spread guilt by association; by demanding an apology from X representative, you subtly or not-so-subtly suggest that the entire group is responsible for the actions of any one of its members.

Sometimes this may be defensible. I'm thinking of situations where a political official or movement, or a corporation or other group, depend on a group of people with extremist views for some kind of support, political or financial, and try and finesse that by not addressing the bad behavior. There is such a thing, I guess I'm saying, as real guilt by association, if it's a voluntary association from which you are deriving benefit.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby addams » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:40 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:I don't understand the call for so-called representatives of certain religious or ethnic groups to publicly denounce things they already obviously disapprove of. Anyone convinced they would endorse it would probably also be convinced they were lying to save face. All you're doing is turning the spotlight away from the perpetrator.


It's purely a power thing. And a sneaky way to spread guilt by association; by demanding an apology from X representative, you subtly or not-so-subtly suggest that the entire group is responsible for the actions of any one of its members.

Sometimes this may be defensible. I'm thinking of situations where a political official or movement, or a corporation or other group, depend on a group of people with extremist views for some kind of support, political or financial, and try and finesse that by not addressing the bad behavior. There is such a thing, I guess I'm saying, as real guilt by association, if it's a voluntary association from which you are deriving benefit.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Steax » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:45 am UTC

Angua wrote:A blast near Tripton mosque is being treated as a terrorist incident. It's the same day as Fusilier Lee Rigby's funeral (incidentally it seems to be a long time for funeral - is that because it needed a coroner's inquest?), so the two are being treated as linked.

Apparently the bomb went off at 1pm, which was when the mosque should have been full, but as it's Ramadan it didn't fill up until 2.


"Nails all over the place"? That would have been a complete disaster if it exploded while the mosque was packed...
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:54 am UTC

Yeah, though I think as the blast wasn't in the mosque itself, hopefully it wouldn't have been too bad even with a lot of people around. Probably not a well thought out attack in any case - but I think the thought behind it was definitely horrible.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Steax » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:48 am UTC

I would guess that it's to avoid attention. Walking into an quiet mosque when nobody recognizes them is certainly going to attract attention from the people there, and since mosques tend to mostly just be a large empty room with carpets, it's kind of hard to conceal an explosive. If anyone saw him (and survived), they'd practically hand over the culprit's identity straight to the police.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby JainBug » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:24 am UTC

A lot of people feel that Britain, and perhaps Europe in general, is being colonized and handed over to foreigners, while white people just sit around and watch. That is why groups like EDL take action, and why many people approve of them or at least they don't condemn them.

Keep in mind that the ethnic conflicts in the Middle East go on at a daily basis. It is so common few care. For example in Palestine. It would be news if there was one day without some tragedy.

Multiculturalism ALWAYS leads to conflict. It is logically impossible for differing groups not to be in conflict when they must share and compete over the control of resources. The more groups in any given area, and the more they differ, the more conflict there is.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby addams » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:19 am UTC

JainBug wrote:A lot of people feel that Britain, and perhaps Europe in general, is being colonized and handed over to foreigners, while white people just sit around and watch. That is why groups like EDL take action, and why many people approve of them or at least they don't condemn them.

Keep in mind that the ethnic conflicts in the Middle East go on at a daily basis. It is so common few care. For example in Palestine. It would be news if there was one day without some tragedy.

Multiculturalism ALWAYS leads to conflict. It is logically impossible for differing groups not to be in conflict when they must share and compete over the control of resources. The more groups in any given area, and the more they differ, the more conflict there is.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby EMTP » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:48 am UTC

JainBug wrote:A lot of people feel that Britain, and perhaps Europe in general, is being colonized and handed over to foreigners, while white people just sit around and watch.


We have those people in America too. They're called "racist scum."

Keep in mind that the ethnic conflicts in the Middle East go on at a daily basis. It is so common few care. For example in Palestine.


Yeah, it's not like people care about the conflict in Palestine. Barely registers at all in the media, right?

Multiculturalism ALWAYS leads to conflict. It is logically impossible for differing groups not to be in conflict when they must share and compete over the control of resources. The more groups in any given area, and the more they differ, the more conflict there is.


What a breathtakingly ignorant thing to claim. There's conflict in Palestine not because of "multiculturalism," but because some racist scum decided they liked the place and wanted to get rid of its Muslim inhabitants. Your Grand Unified Theory of conflict is so nonsensical as to not even be wrong.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby AJR » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:13 pm UTC

JainBug wrote:A lot of people feel that Britain, and perhaps Europe in general, is being colonized and handed over to foreigners,

Yeah, those bloody Anglo-Saxons should bugger off back to Germany/Denmark/the Netherlands and leave Britain to the Britons.
Or maybe you meant that those Norman (& Viking-descended) incomers should bugger off back to Normandy (& Scandinavia) & leave England to the Anglo-Saxons.
Or perhaps you're referring to those continental royals (remember, the Act of Settlement restricts the throne to descendants of Sophia of Hanover - the royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor around the time of WW1.)
Or perhaps you meant...
while white people just sit around and watch.

Oh, you meant foreigners who aren't white, did you?

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:37 pm UTC

Had the Britons had a better immigration policy, they'd still have a country.

No, racism isn't justified, just that every country has the right to decide who does and does not get to enter. It's usually foolish to deny immigrants, as it's usually the most motivated and the best and brightest that make up of the immigrants.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:58 am UTC

"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:46 pm UTC


With respect, this is a thread for the targeting of muslims. Could you discuss this article in the original Lee Rigby thread?
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