Trump presidency

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1810
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:05 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:No, there is absolutely no way to interpret anything I have written as saying that people should be forcibly removed from their country to return it to the native people.


No, instead you advocate Manifest Destiny, the Trail of Tears, and other bullshit.

also Thesh wrote:What we should address is why not having access to one specific want leads to unhappiness. We aren't talking a huge amount of change, or even getting rid of the idea of heritage, just making it so that ancestry isn't so important that they can't be happy without the possessions of their ancestors. Personally, I don't think this problem really exists to a degree that warrants discussion.
...
Let's be clear, we are talking about sending people with weapons to remove someone from their home. Explain to me why ancestry is more important than occupation.
...
To be clear, we are talking about someone who wants to live in their ancestral home, but can't because other people live there. It's a much smaller concession for the person to just not live in their ancestral home, then it is for the state to remove someone from their home.


also Thesh wrote:Also, you need to consider the long term consequences, not just the people today. If you keep making concessions to cultures that are in conflict with society, then those conflicts will never get resolved. if people stop making ancestry so important, the conflicts disappear and everyone is better off. Cultures die. Let them.




"Those Palestinians should just give up and move out, because Israel is occupying their land, and occupation is more important than ancestry."

"Native American culture should just die out, since their culture is in conflict with ours, and we're occupying the land, so its more important than their ancestry."
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:13 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Thesh wrote:recent

And maybe that's really the crux of the issue here - what counts as recent? Not too sure about the laws in the United States, but 200 years ago there were laws in Canada where the government would pay for Native American scalps. Some of those laws were still on the books at the turn of this century (though hadn't actually been used for a time before that). Yes, we have since built houses on that land... but I don't think it's really good enough to just say, "Okay, sorry, but we're using that land now. You can have this other land over here instead. It's more or less the same, so just be happy with that, okay?" I'm not saying that we should tear down those houses and give the land back, but more needs to be done to resolve that conflict.

The Israel/Palestine conflict is even more recent. The creation of Israel back in 1948 was a pretty muddled affair in the first place, but taking the West Bank and Gaza strip in 1967 is a much more clear-cut example of occupation. That's 50 years ago, so there are almost certainly people who previously lived in those homes who are still alive, yet cannot go back for fear of persecution. They have homes now. Why can't they just be happy there? This is a super complex issue that deserves a much more nuanced view than you're presenting. Even looking to the future, it seems like you're suggesting these sorts of conflicts just won't happen. I don't know how you can say that when looking at our past human behavior.


The thing is, the problems faced by Native Americans, descendants of slaves, etc. is not just a particular home. It's a lot more complicated than that, and it's not solved by returning some pieces of property. I'm all in favor of reparations, and I think we have a duty to correct the injustice in our society today, but the ancestral house is petty in comparison to the suffering that has been imposed on various peoples, and returning a few properties is going to do nothing to end that suffering.

Seriously, the Israel/Palestine conflict is not just a few people who want their ancestral house back, but just don't have the ability. Stop equating homes to nations. It makes this conversation a fucking mess. The analogy between homes and countries doesn't work, and I'm not using it at all.


@eran_rathan

What a complete load bullshit.
Last edited by Thesh on Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:19 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

ijuin
Posts: 862
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:History being messy, plenty of situations exist in which more than one group of people would like to live in a place, and would very much like if the other group did not.


The “very much like if the other group did not” tends to be the flashpoint in most conflicts over who gets to control land.

We do have enough land for all to live where they want in the sense of “if the money is available to buy it, we could build enough high-rises and transit to house thirty million people within the current boundaries of (insert city here). That may not satisfy those people who absolutely insist on having a single-family unit instead of a condominium or apartment in a high-rise, but there would be no shortage of overall livable units.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:25 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:It's a lot more complicated than that, and it's not solved by returning some pieces of property. I'm all in favor of reparations, and I think we have a duty to correct the injustice in our society today, but the ancestral house is petty in comparison to the suffering that has been imposed on various peoples, and returning a few properties is going to do nothing to end that suffering.

Sure, I agree. What got this whole tangent started though was when you said this:
Thesh wrote:With respect to the housing analogy, it should also be said that everyone can have their own private space on this planet, without it coming into conflict with anyone else.
...
The idea that there is a simple set of rules that can be applied universally to determine right and wrong is such complete bullshit. The idea that anyone who claims land gets to decide what to do with it as long as they can defend that claim with violence should be the rule that serves as the basis for right and wrong is fucking insane.

Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:36 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.


You do realize that I've address that several times, right? What you are saying might make sense if you take that as a statement on the current situation, and not a hypothetical example for the sake of discussing moral rules. Context matters, and by ignoring the context and focusing on current conflicts you get an interpretation that doesn't make sense.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6434
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
SDK wrote:Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.


You do realize that I've address that several times, right? What you are saying might make sense if you take that as a statement on the current situation, and not a hypothetical example for the sake of discussing moral rules. Context matters, and by ignoring the context and focusing on current conflicts you get an interpretation that doesn't make sense.

Can we take this to a separate thread? The Trump thread has a bad enough reputation as a shit show.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

You're right, sardia. Probably a good idea to drop it anyway. I just realized that we're talking past each other here anyway since our disagreement is way more fundamental than I thought.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11333
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:16 pm UTC

On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4549
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

Regarding Kavanaugh, one thing that I haven't heard discussed much about him is his deep connections to the cosmetics industry. Specifically, his father, Ed Kavanaugh, was an influential lobbyist for the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrance Association and is a key figure in said industry's decades long fight against FDA regulation generally, and covering up the carcinogenic effects of talc (i.e. baby powder) specifically. Johnson & Johnson was recently ordered to pay out a whopping 4.6 billion for the talc issue... a case that Kavanaugh may have the opportunity to rule on if J&J continues to appeal (John Roberts also worked for Ed Kavanaugh in this same industry, incidentally).

ijuin
Posts: 862
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7097
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:46 am UTC

This is a pretty great article that goes into some of the minutiae of the Trump transition.

If nothing else, it introduced me to the notion of "The Sammies", a series of awards that go to federal employees for achieving excellence in their respective fields (which is a great idea, and one that I'm glad to know exists).

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:03 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.


"Yo, Donnie, I'm happy for you and I'm a-let you rule, but Barack Obama was the best president of all time OF ALL TIME!"
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

Prefanity
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:28 am UTC
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Prefanity » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:06 am UTC

Sableagle wrote:
ijuin wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.


"Yo, Donnie, I'm happy for you and I'm a-let you rule, but Barack Obama was the best president of all time OF ALL TIME!"


Which would be fun to hear, but Obama called West a "jackass" for this very outburst at the VMAs, and this call out probably bears some weight in why West is pro Trump now.

User avatar
Koa
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:20 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:24 am UTC

For one, I think Kanye kind of admits fault over that incident... As much as he could bring himself to. I doubt he would be half as concerned with the president calling him a jerk as much as the uglier things all his peers were saying.

For another, It's not surprising that Kanye would be pro-trump given how prone he is to conspiracy theories. American conspiracy communities were the original signal amplifier for Russian propaganda. They were beyond groomed by the time the elections approached, when suddenly more and more conspiracies emerged and there was a lot of excitement for real anti-corruption change. A wrecking ball president to destroy the systems that protected the baby-eating Clinton estate and the sinister Democratic party, or the deepstate that controls both, or whatever else that was invented to make people angry. Restore order, hurt the invisible enemy, MAGA. The same source for their intense excitement was also coincidentally painting trump as a victim, a hero, a solution. It was so easy. If someone isn't entirely sure about the veracity of the first moon landing then it's extremely likely that they're on trump's wheelless wagon.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests