Avengers: Endgame

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Chen
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Wed May 08, 2019 1:23 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
So it's been a bit since I've seen Thor 2. Reading over the synopsis of the plot on Wikipedia and... I honestly don't see how it changes much. It changes what they use as bait, but it doesn't have to change much of the overall plot for it to no longer be in Jane.

My point being - those are the only three events that actually change things. 2014 Thanos dying early, Capt. living his life and presumably telling goddamn everyone about Hydra to root them out in the late 40s/early 50s, and the timeline we saw (or hell, going nuts and Hydraing Hydra - that is, infiltrating the evil organization in the good organization and making it secretly good). Everything else that people bring up - But what about the Aether in Jane how do they get it blah blah doesn't fucking matter if it's in Jane, Jane was just a plot device. A stone inna tube is also a plot device. You could replace Jane in the film with the stone in a tube and the same basic beats will still happen (probably one of the reasons why Portman bailed on the thing too). And depending on whether or not time is self-correcting, two timelines as the one where Thanos gets killed early and the one where Capt. spends his life do not interact with each other in any meaningful way. We don't hear Thanos talk about his first attempt to invade Earth by use of Loki in the 2014 instance. It may have been an even larger rout than it was in the version we saw, though it ultimately doesn't matter.

My point being - people keep using the Ancient One's speech as 100% irrefutable proof that each time they took a stone a whole different reality was created. My point is - I'm not saying Banner's explanation was perfect, but it was good enough - the difference between a timeline where a stone was always there and a timeline where a stone was removed for a couple of seconds is zero. The 2011 Battle of New York we saw played out differently (Loki escaped), so it's in a different timeline But I see no reason to believe the 1970 we saw was not the 1970 that happened for the 2023 Avengers.

Basically -

Original timeline - events play out as we saw on the screen.
Diversion Point 1 - Steve Rogers returns to 194X and lives to some future time.
Diversion Point 2 - Loki grabs the Space Stone and fucks off to wherever.
Mystery Moment - Thanos travels from 2014 to 2023.

The Mystery Moment could have happened on the same line as Diversion Point 1 or 2, though I accept that it could be its own diversion point. Either way, we're dealing with as few as two timelines and as many as four. I simply cannot see anything significant enough happening elsewhere to warrant a whole new timeline without also accepting that every single instance of momentary indecision by anyone in any of the films - on or off camera - birthed a whole new timeline in which one minor fact was slightly different and nothing else changed and that's quite frankly boring and unnecessary. Everything "new" we saw - Aether getting pulled from Jane, Peter being knocked out before he gets the Power Stone, Loki fucking off with the Space Stone, Captain America kicking Captain America's ass - can all fit on Diversion Point 2's timeline without any issues. And if we allow for Steve Hydraing Hydra, all the differences fit on one other timeline.


Spoiler:
I guess I'm mostly in agreement. My understanding was that as long as you didn't fuck things up too badly or too big the timeline could "remerge". So Loki getting away huge problem, lots of consequences probably a different timeline. The aether one is less getting the aether back into Jane, but more all the rest of the impact there. I mean future Thor took present Thor's hammer away from him. Presumably he wasn't using it at the time (hopefully) or that could have caused some diversion. Frigga NOT dying would also be big but she did seem to imply she already knew she was going die so Thor's trip probably didn't affect that. So I can concede Cap "fixes" the aether timeline

Thanos traveling though definitely is the same timeline they stole the Power and Soul stones from. It can't be the same timeline Cap lives his life with Peggy in, because him living with Peggy happens BEFORE Thanos leaves, so its ANOTHER branch regardless. Loki escaping also occurs before Thanos leaves (Avengers 1 occurs before Guardians 1 I think, chronologically in universe) so that branch happened before the branch caused by Thanos leaving.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed May 08, 2019 3:38 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Spoiler:
Steve returning the stones doesn't have to be four instances of backwards time travel; he could go back to 1970 to return one of them, then forward to 2012 to return another two, then forward to 2013 to return another, and forward to 2014 to return two more. Also, since he lived a long life back there in the past, he could have just gone back to 1940-whenever, then taken the slow route to 1970, 2012, 2013, and 2014. Although that's kinda risky just hanging on to the stones that whole time. And in any case, it's really not clear how he's getting to Asgard, Morag, or Vormir for the last three stones, unless he brought along the miniaturized Guardians' ship with him when he went?


Spoiler:
Yeah, that's why 10 is just the maximum. Without knowing more about the rules of MCU Time Travel and what route through time Steve took to return the stones and live his life, it's hard to narrow things down more than that with any certainty. I don't think he just took one trip back to the 1940's and returned the stones at the appropriate times while living out his life because of Bruce saying he 'overshot' his return, makes me think that was a separate instance of time travel. Thinking about it some ore, I have to consider also that it's possible Steve may have taken multiple attempts to return some of the stones, opening up the possibility of even more than 10 timelines, though that seems unlikely.

Also, I wonder what Heimdall's perception of all the time travel shenanigans was? Maybe Steve having Mjolnir caused Heimdall to pay extra attention to him and possibly let him use the Bifrost to return the stones that weren't on Earth.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 08, 2019 4:21 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
So it's been a bit since I've seen Thor 2. Reading over the synopsis of the plot on Wikipedia and... I honestly don't see how it changes much. It changes what they use as bait, but it doesn't have to change much of the overall plot for it to no longer be in Jane.

My point being - those are the only three events that actually change things. 2014 Thanos dying early, Capt. living his life and presumably telling goddamn everyone about Hydra to root them out in the late 40s/early 50s, and the timeline we saw (or hell, going nuts and Hydraing Hydra - that is, infiltrating the evil organization in the good organization and making it secretly good). Everything else that people bring up - But what about the Aether in Jane how do they get it blah blah doesn't fucking matter if it's in Jane, Jane was just a plot device. A stone inna tube is also a plot device. You could replace Jane in the film with the stone in a tube and the same basic beats will still happen (probably one of the reasons why Portman bailed on the thing too). And depending on whether or not time is self-correcting, two timelines as the one where Thanos gets killed early and the one where Capt. spends his life do not interact with each other in any meaningful way. We don't hear Thanos talk about his first attempt to invade Earth by use of Loki in the 2014 instance. It may have been an even larger rout than it was in the version we saw, though it ultimately doesn't matter.

My point being - people keep using the Ancient One's speech as 100% irrefutable proof that each time they took a stone a whole different reality was created. My point is - I'm not saying Banner's explanation was perfect, but it was good enough - the difference between a timeline where a stone was always there and a timeline where a stone was removed for a couple of seconds is zero. The 2011 Battle of New York we saw played out differently (Loki escaped), so it's in a different timeline But I see no reason to believe the 1970 we saw was not the 1970 that happened for the 2023 Avengers.

Basically -

Original timeline - events play out as we saw on the screen.
Diversion Point 1 - Steve Rogers returns to 194X and lives to some future time.
Diversion Point 2 - Loki grabs the Space Stone and fucks off to wherever.
Mystery Moment - Thanos travels from 2014 to 2023.

The Mystery Moment could have happened on the same line as Diversion Point 1 or 2, though I accept that it could be its own diversion point. Either way, we're dealing with as few as two timelines and as many as four. I simply cannot see anything significant enough happening elsewhere to warrant a whole new timeline without also accepting that every single instance of momentary indecision by anyone in any of the films - on or off camera - birthed a whole new timeline in which one minor fact was slightly different and nothing else changed and that's quite frankly boring and unnecessary. Everything "new" we saw - Aether getting pulled from Jane, Peter being knocked out before he gets the Power Stone, Loki fucking off with the Space Stone, Captain America kicking Captain America's ass - can all fit on Diversion Point 2's timeline without any issues. And if we allow for Steve Hydraing Hydra, all the differences fit on one other timeline.


Spoiler:
I guess I'm mostly in agreement. My understanding was that as long as you didn't fuck things up too badly or too big the timeline could "remerge". So Loki getting away huge problem, lots of consequences probably a different timeline. The aether one is less getting the aether back into Jane, but more all the rest of the impact there. I mean future Thor took present Thor's hammer away from him. Presumably he wasn't using it at the time (hopefully) or that could have caused some diversion. Frigga NOT dying would also be big but she did seem to imply she already knew she was going die so Thor's trip probably didn't affect that. So I can concede Cap "fixes" the aether timeline

Thanos traveling though definitely is the same timeline they stole the Power and Soul stones from. It can't be the same timeline Cap lives his life with Peggy in, because him living with Peggy happens BEFORE Thanos leaves, so its ANOTHER branch regardless. Loki escaping also occurs before Thanos leaves (Avengers 1 occurs before Guardians 1 I think, chronologically in universe) so that branch happened before the branch caused by Thanos leaving.

I prefer a slight variation:

Spoiler:
Prime timeline - Events play out as we see them. Unknown to most people, Steve Rogers reappears in the late 40s and lives a quiet life in the background, trying to avoid creating any ripples. Tony and a third Steve appear briefly in the 70s and chat to a few people, as well as some Pym particles going missing, encouraging Hank Pym's mistrust of SHIELD. In 2013, there's another blip when a second Thor visits Asgard accompanied by a strange creature.

Alternate timeline - Events play out as above until the divergence point in 2012. Following the conclusion of the Battle of New York, Tony has a cardiac incident, and in the ensuing confusion, Loki manages to escape with the Tesseract. According to official reports, Loki then used his illusion powers to reclaim the Scepter using Captain America's appearance, and had an encounter with the real Captain America before making good his escape. The Scepter was later recovered, but the Tesseract is assumed to remain in Loki's possession. Meanwhile, over on Bleecker Street, The Ancient One is convinced to entrust the Time Stone to Bruce Banner, and her trust is rewarded when Steve returns it to her. In 2014, the appearance of a second Nebula allows Thanos to substitute his Nebula and use her to invade an alternate future with his forces, abandoning this timeline to the Malthusian crisis he alone foresees.

There's nothing stopping the various points of difference from the prime timeline all being in the same timeline - in particular, Loki escaping with the Tesseract rather than it being taken to Odin's Vault wouldn't be expected to have any consequences for events on Morag just two years later, let alone having any influence on Vormir. So there's an absolute minimum of two timelines once the dust settles. Maybe as many as four, though I prefer to think of Old Steve having lived his life in the prime timeline.

During the process, there are additional nascent timelines created and then cancelled by Steve returning the Stones - with potential divergence points in 197X and 2013. There are a minimum of three timelines since the Tesseract has three different, mutually exclusive fates - going missing in the 70s, being stolen by Loki in 2012, and being locked in Odin's Vault in 2012 - and as many as five (Steve's final trip eliminates two of them, but potentially creates a sixth timeline).

If you don't assume that returning the Stones can neutralise the divergence, but instead that it creates yet another timeline, then you get up to ten timelines total (in order of branching: prime, Steve and Peggy dance in the 40s, Tesseract goes missing in the 70s, Tesseract returned in the 70s, Loki steals Tesseract and Time and Mind Stones lost, Loki steals Tesseract and Time and Mind Stones returned, Aether disappears, Aether returned, Thanos disappears and Power and Soul Stones lost, Thanos disappears and Power and Soul stones returned)

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Wed May 08, 2019 5:16 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I'm ok with much of that, but I can't believe Cap could be in the main timeline without affecting anything. He's not that kind of guy. He couldn't let things like Hydra's takeover happen nor any number of other disasters. His timeline with Peggy is almost certainly a modified one, just from how he would live out his life

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 08, 2019 7:23 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm ok with much of that, but I can't believe Cap could be in the main timeline without affecting anything. He's not that kind of guy. He couldn't let things like Hydra's takeover happen nor any number of other disasters. His timeline with Peggy is almost certainly a modified one, just from how he would live out his life

Spoiler:
The trouble is there are only two possibilities here, and both of them require Steve to be a bit out of his previous character:
A) He used his knowledge of future events to "improve" his new twentieth century and then, after his Peggy eventually died, returned to the prime timeline somehow, without using the recall platform for some reason, and instead found his way to a park bench near the platform he left from. Because either returning to the platform when he was supposed to is somehow significantly harder than returning to the same timeline somewhere/when else or Old Steve deliberately decided to make his friends think he might have failed and/or died in his attempt, and deliberately missed the platform on his eventual return.
B) He either chose not to, or tried and failed to, make any significant changes to the timeline, knowing that things mostly turned out okay. That doesn't mean that he retired completely and never intervened in anything - just that the things he did do didn't create any paradoxes with the MCU as we know it. Maybe he had a separate briefing with Dr Strange, maybe the Ancient One tracked him down after he settled in the late 40s, or maybe he gave up on trying to change things after a few attempts failed with consequences. For example, if he tried arguing about Dr Zola being recruited through Operation Paperclip, he'd be shot down by the brass, and investigated for his knowledge of a classified program. Net result, things are put in place so that he can't interfere with Zola's work. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that without Cap and Peggy working on it, Hydra would have taken SHIELD over in the 60s or 70s and things would have been very different. Or maybe Steve had a voice in, say, hiring Nick Fury, or helped with finding the Tesseract - doing things to help create the timeline we've seen rather than just letting it unfold.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Wed May 08, 2019 9:21 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Chen wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm ok with much of that, but I can't believe Cap could be in the main timeline without affecting anything. He's not that kind of guy. He couldn't let things like Hydra's takeover happen nor any number of other disasters. His timeline with Peggy is almost certainly a modified one, just from how he would live out his life

Spoiler:
The trouble is there are only two possibilities here, and both of them require Steve to be a bit out of his previous character:
A) He used his knowledge of future events to "improve" his new twentieth century and then, after his Peggy eventually died, returned to the prime timeline somehow, without using the recall platform for some reason, and instead found his way to a park bench near the platform he left from. Because either returning to the platform when he was supposed to is somehow significantly harder than returning to the same timeline somewhere/when else or Old Steve deliberately decided to make his friends think he might have failed and/or died in his attempt, and deliberately missed the platform on his eventual return.
B) He either chose not to, or tried and failed to, make any significant changes to the timeline, knowing that things mostly turned out okay. That doesn't mean that he retired completely and never intervened in anything - just that the things he did do didn't create any paradoxes with the MCU as we know it. Maybe he had a separate briefing with Dr Strange, maybe the Ancient One tracked him down after he settled in the late 40s, or maybe he gave up on trying to change things after a few attempts failed with consequences. For example, if he tried arguing about Dr Zola being recruited through Operation Paperclip, he'd be shot down by the brass, and investigated for his knowledge of a classified program. Net result, things are put in place so that he can't interfere with Zola's work. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that without Cap and Peggy working on it, Hydra would have taken SHIELD over in the 60s or 70s and things would have been very different. Or maybe Steve had a voice in, say, hiring Nick Fury, or helped with finding the Tesseract - doing things to help create the timeline we've seen rather than just letting it unfold.


Spoiler:
Given what we've seen of Steve, do you really think him being told "No" would stop him from punching every Hydra agent he could get his hands on?

I just don't see him staying in the same timeline we saw, though I have no idea how he got to the park bench without staying in the timeline we saw.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby arbiteroftruth » Wed May 08, 2019 9:38 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
Given what we've seen of Steve, do you really think him being told "No" would stop him from punching every Hydra agent he could get his hands on?

I just don't see him staying in the same timeline we saw, though I have no idea how he got to the park bench without staying in the timeline we saw.


Spoiler:
I could imagine him showing up on Peggy's doorstep, giving her a quick summary of how he's back, and her insisting that he never reveal details about the future. Since he does know that it all works out in the end, I could see him keeping his mouth shut if that's what Peggy asked for. And I could see her asking for that just because "let's try to avoid screwing with history too much since we already know it works out".

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Wed May 08, 2019 10:02 pm UTC

Spoiler:
There's absolutely no way his presence would not affect the past significantly, even if hidden from view and not involved in current events of the time. There's just no way. Peggy would have recovered quicker from illnesses because he was there to take care of her, she might ask him something innocuous and he would answer innocently as well and that would just happen to spark an idea in her mind, she would be more paranoid about her personal life which would impact her relationships at work, etc. She's such an influential person I wouldn't be surprised if Nick Fury never became an agent in the timeline Steve's gone to. There's just no way.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 09, 2019 12:54 am UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
There's absolutely no way his presence would not affect the past significantly, even if hidden from view and not involved in current events of the time. There's just no way. Peggy would have recovered quicker from illnesses because he was there to take care of her, she might ask him something innocuous and he would answer innocently as well and that would just happen to spark an idea in her mind, she would be more paranoid about her personal life which would impact her relationships at work, etc. She's such an influential person I wouldn't be surprised if Nick Fury never became an agent in the timeline Steve's gone to. There's just no way.

Unless...
Spoiler:
He was there all along. We know Peggy Carter married someone who stayed out of the limelight - why not Steve Rogers? If Steve has been in the MCU all along, then he's been in the MCU all along - he wouldn't be changing what happened; he'd be completing it. The classic predestination loop.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Thu May 09, 2019 1:10 am UTC

It's a bit like someone says in a flat tone "Three Jews walk into a bar and the bartender says 'Was möchten Sie trinken?'" Is... that a joke? It's kinda in the format of a joke but I don't get it, and I get the sense that if it is a joke it's probably an offensive one, but maybe it's supposed to be more like an "oh shit this isn't going to turn out well" beginning of a tragedy or horror story...? Why did that person say that thing, what reaction do they want from me by saying it?


Kind of a weird one. I mean there are hundreds of thousands of German Jews today, and hundreds of thousands more German-speaking Jews elsewhere. They are describing a mundane event that happens every day in Hamburg.

With regard to Thor,
Spoiler:
I didn't take it as making a cheap play for fat-shaming laughs. I mean unexpected things, odd juxtapositions, can be funny. People laughed when Professor Hulk came on screen: our expectations were subverted. Seeing the Hulk speaking like Banner is a jolt, and seeing the normally lean and muscular Thor in adipose state is a jolt. Even Tony's new nickname for him, Big Lebowski, is more about his shagginess. If his new weight had been presented as an impediment then yeah that would have been a problem, but he's still as powerful as heck, as shown in the Battle Of Earth.


Spoiler your shit goddamn. -ST
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Thu May 09, 2019 4:40 am UTC

Spoiler your shit goddamn. -ST[/quote]

A'ight. When does the embargo come up?

Hey, do you like memes? No? Not even a little? Huh.
So here are some things I've placed on 9gag (where the spoilers are allowed now so...).
Telekenesis and telepathy
It ain't much but it's honest work
Changes
Two Theories
Perils of being smart
America the beautiful
Context-free spoilers
Various MCU character names arranged in a rectangle
Perfection
Real love
a) Please explain the specific MEDICAL reason for ordering this MEDICATION !
b) Please state the nature of your ailment or injury.
c) One a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your pain?
d) Please state the nature of the medical emergency.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 09, 2019 2:09 pm UTC

Unless...
Spoiler:
He was there all along. We know Peggy Carter married someone who stayed out of the limelight - why not Steve Rogers? If Steve has been in the MCU all along, then he's been in the MCU all along - he wouldn't be changing what happened; he'd be completing it. The classic predestination loop.


Spoiler:
Possibly. I haven't seen Agent Carter, is there any indication on it that it could be him? I would imagine it has its fair share of longing looks at an old picture of him or something that would make it hard to argue that case. I still find it very unlikely he wouldn't try to warn anyone about Hydra of the dozens of other events in history he's aware of.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 09, 2019 2:18 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:
Spoiler your shit goddamn. -ST


A'ight. When does the embargo come up?

Hey, do you like memes? No? Not even a little? Huh.
So here are some things I've placed on 9gag (where the spoilers are allowed now so...).
Telekenesis and telepathy
It ain't much but it's honest work
Changes
Two Theories
Perils of being smart
America the beautiful
Context-free spoilers
Various MCU character names arranged in a rectangle
Perfection
Real love



If only we had a rules thread where it was spelled out in detail.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 09, 2019 3:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Unless...
Spoiler:
He was there all along. We know Peggy Carter married someone who stayed out of the limelight - why not Steve Rogers? If Steve has been in the MCU all along, then he's been in the MCU all along - he wouldn't be changing what happened; he'd be completing it. The classic predestination loop.


Spoiler:
Possibly. I haven't seen Agent Carter, is there any indication on it that it could be him? I would imagine it has its fair share of longing looks at an old picture of him or something that would make it hard to argue that case. I still find it very unlikely he wouldn't try to warn anyone about Hydra of the dozens of other events in history he's aware of.

Spoiler:
I haven't seen Agent Carter either, but apparently they were going to drop hints about who her husband could end up being in the cancelled third season. Pretty much everything we know about him comes from Winter Soldier.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm UTC


If only we had a rules thread where it was spelled out in detail.


Thanks.

So, damn, forever then. The example given is TESB!

To those asking about Agent Carter: you should watch it! It's a nice show, written by the team that wrote Endgame. It has the Dominic Cooper Howard Stark and his gentleman's attendant, Jarvis. There's certainly no indication in it that
Spoiler:
Captain America is alive in it. He is mentioned a few times. Her romantic attachment in this series is to her partner Sousa, who is indeed a war veteran but there is (if memory serves) no suggestion that Steve saved him so he might not be the man Peggy says she married in CA:TWS. The last episode takes place in 1948 so (shrugs) Steve may have come back to her any time after that and become the man she marries.
a) Please explain the specific MEDICAL reason for ordering this MEDICATION !
b) Please state the nature of your ailment or injury.
c) One a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your pain?
d) Please state the nature of the medical emergency.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri May 10, 2019 12:42 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:As for Thor,
Spoiler:
it's fine if you don't understand why people find his depiction offensive - not everyone can relate or understand everyone's mental health experiences! It is totally OK to say "I don't relate to this". But saying that it can't possibly be offensive is pretty obnoxious. It was obvious to me they were laughing at Thor and his pain. It was obvious by the way the movie showed it, it was obvious by the amount of laughter from the crowd around his scenes that that was the point. It is obvious from many other people's comments that this is not a singular opinion held by me.

Zohar wrote:My post was a reply to maybeagnostic's post, not yours, I got ninja'd and I apologize that it seemed it was aimed at you.

I didn't say it couldn't possibly be offensive. In fact,
Spoiler:
I agree that it could have been handled more sensitively but it certainly wasn't the movie's priority. We obviously also had different watching experiences because the only audience laugh Thor got in my theater was in his very first appearance i.e. the shocking moment of "lol, Thor got fat." This character arc is obviously not over though so maybe Guardians 3 will handle it better? This was definitely more of a setup for an issue and a well handled resolution later on can make it a very good character arc spread between a few movies in my eyes. They already get a few points for not treating it as something that can be resolved quickly and easily (conversation with Frigga obviously helped some but Thor didn't get miraculously "fine") and I'd argue Valkyrie, at the very least, showed understanding especially as she obviously dealt with something similar in Thor 3.


rmsgrey wrote:There is a problem with your spoiler'ed assertion:
Spoiler:
If you can't time-travel to a given time without spawning a parallel universe, then the Ancient One doesn't know what she's talking about - okay, strictly, Bruce doesn't know what he's talking about, but she doesn't correct or challenge his claim that if the Avengers win back home, they can return the Stones and repair the new timelines rather than dooming those timelines to destruction and creating yet another set of parallel universes where the Stones were returned.

So this is not the standard "every time-travel spawns a new timeline" model of time-travel. One moderately consistent model that does fit what I remember of the movie is that the timeline has a degree of resistance to change, so if you keep things consistent with the history you came from, you can return home the long way, but if you do change history, that will spawn a separate reality for the new timeline, but if you undo your change before the consequences can ripple out too far, you can divert the new timeline back into the old timeline, where it merges rather than staying separate. The obvious metaphor is with streams of water. In this model, returning the Stones would actually work, you still wouldn't be able to change your own past (though you could change your perspective on events), and Steve could live out a life with Peggy provided he stayed off people's radar...

Regarding time travel shenanigans:
Spoiler:
I didn't say going back spawned branching timelines and that's not what the movie explanation said either despite the unfortunate visualization by the Ancient One. What the movie very clearly said was that they aren't traveling back in time at all but to alternative virtually identical realities that were not as far advanced in their timelines so its just hopping around the multiverse without ever going back in your time. That's why you can go over there, grab an object that was already destroyed in your reality and (temporarily or permanently) bring it over. While I am sure it doesn't hold up perfectly, I haven't seen any criticism of the "time travel" that is an issue for this interpretation.

At least that's what I thought was very clearly explained in the movie but it seems most people here interpreted it differently so there's obviously at least a solid dose of my own reasoning thrown in there. Again, the way I understood it, there's never any "branching" of timelines, there's just a universe where the Tesseract was briefly missing in the '70s but no one noticed and there's a universe where the Soul and Power Stones were briefly missing in 2014 and Thanos noticed and a universe where Loki grabbed the Tesseract and escaped custody in 2013 and a universe where Cap married Peggy in the '40s then rooted out Hydra from SHIELD with his faithful sidekick- reformed-mystic-Red-Skull, etc. These may all be the same alternate reality or several different ones but regardless things only ever happened there a certain way without ever changing, that way just happened to include future Avengers from an alternate reality popping up and running amok.

The Ancient One's visualization of the "branch" was just to express the negative effects a missing Time Stone would have on the future of her reality. It was an "if we have Time Stone we get sunshine and rainbows, if we don't have Time Stone we get Trump and Brexit so pretty please bring back our Time Stone when you are done with it" i.e. discussion of probable future events, not something set in stone. It wasn't relevant that Hulk was from another reality, the only issue was that he intended to remove the Time Stone from theirs.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 10, 2019 4:50 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:At least that's what I thought was very clearly explained in the movie but it seems most people here interpreted it differently so there's obviously at least a solid dose of my own reasoning thrown in there.

Yeah, I didn't see anything like that explained in the movie. If you're thinking of Bruce's explanation, I thought that all he was saying was
Spoiler:
that the common and completely incoherent movie time travel mechanic of going to the past, changing things, and having them consequently changed back in the present, is not how time travel "really" works (in their world), nor are stable time loops possible, because when you go back in time, you branch off a new timeline. That new timeline is then an alternate reality, basically, that has its own existence independent of yours, and you can go back to your future rather than its future thanks to Stark's Time GPS, but it still has a future of its own to worry about. If they had handled this completely coherently, then there would be no such thing as going back again to undo the changes you made to the previous timeline, but the Ancient One's later explanation seems to suggest that the filmmakers were not being that consistent about it, and that, basically, timelines can re-merge if you just make one sufficiently enough like the other one again, presumably because the Time Stone that's responsible for managing time has some kind of intelligent agency and will just do that to clean up reality, so that only when significantly different things happen in a narrative sense, like Loki escaping, or Thanos disappearing into the future where he dies, or an Infinity Stone disappearing into the future never to return, does that change remain a separate timeline.

It occurs to me now that if Loki escaping and Thanos disappearing are somehow the same timeline because Time Stone Timeline Merger Magic or whatever, that works out well for the Loki TV show presumably based on that timeline where Loki escapes, because now in that timeline Thanos just isn't a problem they need to worry about in the future of that TV show, because by season 3 (presuming it begins in 2012) Thanos, who hasn't really done much yet, will quietly take off into the future and never come back because Tony snaps him to death; or else if the show starts in the present of that timeline, Thanos has already vanished for good.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri May 10, 2019 8:02 pm UTC

Ok, no, just none of that.
Spoiler:
Firstly, I am not basing this on anything Bruce or the Ancient One said because neither one understood the mechanism they used to travel between realities. Its been a few weeks since I saw the movie but I am pretty sure all the relevant mechanics were laid out in the first conversation between Ant Man and Tony- there are no new timelines (well, they are new to our characters and the audience but they aren't being created) or branches, it is all just traveling to alternative realities that already exist so it isn't time travel at all.

Secondly, since there were no branches, returning the Stones wasn't about merging anything. The Ancient One explained that a reality needs its Stones present or bad things will happen after a while so Cap went and put them back in their original reality(ies). Imagine I borrowed a friend's car for a road trip- returning the car at the end of the trip isn't undoing the borrowing but not returning the car would create problems.

So imagine the simplest case- there are three realities. One is what we've been shown in the movies so far. The second had the Tesseract briefly disappeared in the '70s but no one noticed; Loki escaped with the Tesseract in 2012 while The Ancient One let Banner borrow the Time Stone briefly; the Mind and Soul Stones also briefly disappeared in 2013 but only Quill and Red Skull noticed, simultaneously something weird happened on Asgard right before the dark elves attacked and someone extracted the Ether from Jane and stole Thor's hammer (may or may not have returned it); finally Thanos and his army just vanished in 2014. This is a quite different universe as far as movie events go (at the very least Thor and Guardians stories are quite different) but from the PoV of a regular person it is almost indistinguishable from the main universe. Finally the third one is the one Cap went to after WWII, married Peggy, saved his local self from the ice, fought Hydra from very early on and so on. This one is likely quite noticeably different at least for people living on Earth.

This interpretation still breaks down in a few spots (e.g. why was old Cap on the bench and not on the platform?) but it explains all the big things- why they can't just "go back" and kill Thanos before The Snap, how does returning the Stones fix things when those realities are still going to be different, would Captain America really allow occult nazis to take over a powerful spy organization for decades, etc.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby ObsessoMom » Sun May 12, 2019 5:18 am UTC

Saw it today with husband and kid. My main plot glitch was

Spoiler:
"Oh, shoot, the half of humanity that disappeared five years ago suddenly reappeared. This is an agricultural catastrophe. No one has planted enough food for a population this size. Certain starvation awaits. And probably a complete descent of society into chaos, as the time-jumping half of humanity finds itself suddenly destitute. Everything they formerly owned has now been distributed to the other half of humanity, and literally everyone on the planet will now have to fight for whatever resources they can hold onto. The most obvious of which being the aforementioned food, because there's a pretty big difference between the amount of crops one plants for 4 billion people and the amount of crops one plants for 8 billion people, and there are way more than 8 billion people now because the folks who didn't turn to dust have probably been reproducing in earnest in the intervening 5 years.


[Edited to simplify things]

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Sun May 12, 2019 6:10 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Saw it today with husband and kid. My main plot glitch was

Spoiler:
"Oh, shoot, the half of humanity that disappeared five years ago suddenly reappeared. This is an agricultural catastrophe. No one has planted enough food for a population this size. Certain starvation awaits. And probably a complete descent of society into chaos, as the time-jumping half of humanity finds itself suddenly destitute. Everything they formerly owned has now been distributed to the other half of humanity, and literally everyone on the planet will now have to fight for whatever resources they can hold onto. The most obvious of which being the aforementioned food, because there's a pretty big difference between the amount of crops one plants for 4 billion people and the amount of crops one plants for 8 billion people, and there are way more than 8 billion people now because the folks who didn't turn to dust have probably been reproducing in earnest in the intervening 5 years.


[Edited to simplify things]


The official word after Infinity War was:

Spoiler:
Thanos actually eliminated half of all living things (despite the only tree shown dusting being Groot, and none of the other plant life in Wakanda dusting either) - and in Endgame we see that birds reappear following Hulk's snap, so, at a minimum, there's an awful lot of livestock suddenly looking for their feed...

And if there has been a population boom in the intervening 5 years, that would counter some of the effects - stretching food for 8 billion to feed 12 billion is easier than stretching food for 4 billion to feed 8 billion. I'm not sure there would have been significant population growth though - at least not yet - some people would have had children they wouldn't have otherwise, but some people are still afraid to reconnect for fear of losing again, and some will undoubtedly have suicided.

Still, unless crops were also dusted, you have a good point about the food supply. Most other things can (and will) be sorted out - though lawyers will be arguing the details for decades. Getting enough food is going to be a real issue for a lot of worlds - Earth had enough lead time for Pepper to get ahead of the problem (and you just know that when Tony said he was going to try to bring everyone back, she started planning for what would happen if he succeeded) so it may not be so bad here, but most of the universe has no explanation for what happened, nor any warning of it being reversed...

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby elasto » Sun May 12, 2019 7:58 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:Saw it today with husband and kid. My main plot glitch was

Spoiler:
"Oh, shoot, the half of humanity that disappeared five years ago suddenly reappeared. This is an agricultural catastrophe. No one has planted enough food for a population this size. Certain starvation awaits. And probably a complete descent of society into chaos, as the time-jumping half of humanity finds itself suddenly destitute. Everything they formerly owned has now been distributed to the other half of humanity, and literally everyone on the planet will now have to fight for whatever resources they can hold onto. The most obvious of which being the aforementioned food, because there's a pretty big difference between the amount of crops one plants for 4 billion people and the amount of crops one plants for 8 billion people, and there are way more than 8 billion people now because the folks who didn't turn to dust have probably been reproducing in earnest in the intervening 5 years.


[Edited to simplify things]


The official word after Infinity War was:

Spoiler:
Thanos actually eliminated half of all living things (despite the only tree shown dusting being Groot, and none of the other plant life in Wakanda dusting either) - and in Endgame we see that birds reappear following Hulk's snap, so, at a minimum, there's an awful lot of livestock suddenly looking for their feed...

And if there has been a population boom in the intervening 5 years, that would counter some of the effects - stretching food for 8 billion to feed 12 billion is easier than stretching food for 4 billion to feed 8 billion. I'm not sure there would have been significant population growth though - at least not yet - some people would have had children they wouldn't have otherwise, but some people are still afraid to reconnect for fear of losing again, and some will undoubtedly have suicided.

Still, unless crops were also dusted, you have a good point about the food supply. Most other things can (and will) be sorted out - though lawyers will be arguing the details for decades. Getting enough food is going to be a real issue for a lot of worlds - Earth had enough lead time for Pepper to get ahead of the problem (and you just know that when Tony said he was going to try to bring everyone back, she started planning for what would happen if he succeeded) so it may not be so bad here, but most of the universe has no explanation for what happened, nor any warning of it being reversed...


Spoiler:
According to research we currently produce enough food to feed the world population 1.5x over; it's inefficiencies in logistics that mean people still go hungry. Therefore rmsgrey's guess of being able stretch the food seems to be sound, especially if livestock all return. Wild animal populations would likely have rebounded quickly meaning there'd be a super-abundance of wild meat once animals returned.

Yes there would probably need to be food rationing in most countries, equivalent to what happened in places like the UK after WW2, but, since almost everyone would know someone who disappeared and returned, I think there'd be a global solidarity and widespread adherence to such a scheme.

What to do with property such as housing that has changed hands would be mighty tricky for sure though. The leftist in me would hope it would kick the world towards much more shared and social housing but that's getting a little too 'real-world' for this kind of thread :D

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Sun May 12, 2019 12:28 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:Saw it today with husband and kid. My main plot glitch was

Spoiler:
"Oh, shoot, the half of humanity that disappeared five years ago suddenly reappeared. This is an agricultural catastrophe. No one has planted enough food for a population this size. Certain starvation awaits. And probably a complete descent of society into chaos, as the time-jumping half of humanity finds itself suddenly destitute. Everything they formerly owned has now been distributed to the other half of humanity, and literally everyone on the planet will now have to fight for whatever resources they can hold onto. The most obvious of which being the aforementioned food, because there's a pretty big difference between the amount of crops one plants for 4 billion people and the amount of crops one plants for 8 billion people, and there are way more than 8 billion people now because the folks who didn't turn to dust have probably been reproducing in earnest in the intervening 5 years.


[Edited to simplify things]


The official word after Infinity War was:

Spoiler:
Thanos actually eliminated half of all living things (despite the only tree shown dusting being Groot, and none of the other plant life in Wakanda dusting either) - and in Endgame we see that birds reappear following Hulk's snap, so, at a minimum, there's an awful lot of livestock suddenly looking for their feed...

And if there has been a population boom in the intervening 5 years, that would counter some of the effects - stretching food for 8 billion to feed 12 billion is easier than stretching food for 4 billion to feed 8 billion. I'm not sure there would have been significant population growth though - at least not yet - some people would have had children they wouldn't have otherwise, but some people are still afraid to reconnect for fear of losing again, and some will undoubtedly have suicided.

Still, unless crops were also dusted, you have a good point about the food supply. Most other things can (and will) be sorted out - though lawyers will be arguing the details for decades. Getting enough food is going to be a real issue for a lot of worlds - Earth had enough lead time for Pepper to get ahead of the problem (and you just know that when Tony said he was going to try to bring everyone back, she started planning for what would happen if he succeeded) so it may not be so bad here, but most of the universe has no explanation for what happened, nor any warning of it being reversed...


Spoiler:
According to research we currently produce enough food to feed the world population 1.5x over; it's inefficiencies in logistics that mean people still go hungry. Therefore rmsgrey's guess of being able stretch the food seems to be sound, especially if livestock all return. Wild animal populations would likely have rebounded quickly meaning there'd be a super-abundance of wild meat once animals returned.

Yes there would probably need to be food rationing in most countries, equivalent to what happened in places like the UK after WW2, but, since almost everyone would know someone who disappeared and returned, I think there'd be a global solidarity and widespread adherence to such a scheme.

What to do with property such as housing that has changed hands would be mighty tricky for sure though. The leftist in me would hope it would kick the world towards much more shared and social housing but that's getting a little too 'real-world' for this kind of thread :D

Spoiler:
There is a question mark over how much property will have legally changed hands - a person needs to have been missing for some years to be declared dead, though circumstances like being on board a plane that crashed or having been inside the World Trade Center in early September 2001 can allow an earlier declaration of death. For dustings that were witnessed by someone who knew (or could identify) the victim, that would also speed things up. For someone declared dead in absentia who then turns up alive, the consequences vary by jurisdiction - some require that inherited property be returned (where feasible); others leave it where it is.

There's also the point that the declaration of death is not automatic - you have to ask for someone to be declared dead in absentia, and then go through the process of dealing with their legacy.

Of course, the snaps are also sufficiently major events that specific legislation may well have been passed to cover those missing (and will be passed to cover the returned) rather than relying on existing legislation intended to cover rare cases of people disappearing without trace, and rarer cases of people declared dead turning up again.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Jorpho » Tue May 14, 2019 4:41 am UTC

Spoiler:
Amusing as they may be to think about, I would expect that a lot of these hypotheticals would be strongly influenced by the fresh introduction of hyper-advanced Wakandan technology that would have been rolling out at the time of the snap. Perhaps influenced just enough to conveniently bring everything back to the status quo in time for whatever the next movie will be after Spider-Man.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Tue May 14, 2019 5:22 pm UTC

I nitpick and tear apart movie inconsistencies and plot holes all the time... just ask my wife - it drives her crazy. But, IMHO y'all are thinking about this way too hard. The plot-mechanic...
Spoiler:
...time travel...
...mainly serves the cinematic purpose of tying together a grand finale of super-humanly powerful, space traveling beings at war. :roll: It works cinematically. I would table the "what abouts" and "what ifs" until future movies are made to see if the potentially problematic parts of Endgame have any relevance to the greater cinematic story arc, or are isolated [quarantined :P] to Endgame. I'm hoping for the latter, but we'll see.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Tue May 14, 2019 10:08 pm UTC

Ranbot wrote:I nitpick and tear apart movie inconsistencies and plot holes all the time... just ask my wife - it drives her crazy. But, IMHO y'all are thinking about this way too hard. The plot-mechanic...
Spoiler:
...time travel...
...mainly serves the cinematic purpose of tying together a grand finale of super-humanly powerful, space traveling beings at war. :roll: It works cinematically. I would table the "what abouts" and "what ifs" until future movies are made to see if the potentially problematic parts of Endgame have any relevance to the greater cinematic story arc, or are isolated [quarantined :P] to Endgame. I'm hoping for the latter, but we'll see.


Yeah, as a story-telling device, it does exactly what it sets out to do. But where's the fun in just saying that and stopping there?

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed May 15, 2019 4:05 am UTC

What, a literal
Spoiler:
Time Heist!
Isn't enough fun for you? What more do you want?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 15, 2019 2:39 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:What, a literal
Spoiler:
Time Heist!
Isn't enough fun for you? What more do you want?


Some interesting ideas to (over-)analyse and nitpick the actual/presented consequences of as a way of playing with them further? Nitpicking the movie doesn't mean it's not good entertainment - it means there's even more entertainment to be had in treating it as a discussion prompt.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Wed May 15, 2019 2:58 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:But where's the fun in just saying that and stopping there?

If your idea of fun is trying to figure out how many angels [or superheros] can dance on the head of a pin, then by all means, continue...

...but if you value your time at all it might be prudent to see if MCU ever re-opens this Pandora's Box... I don't think they will [and hope they don't]. Endgame is the only movie in the entire MCU arc so far to use this plot mechanic and it very well could be the last. IMO the most logical way for a movie franchise to handle this cinematically is to say: Everything worked out fine in Endgame. Everything is back to normal. These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along. :D

Edit:
rmsgrey wrote:Nitpicking the movie doesn't mean it's not good entertainment - it means there's even more entertainment to be had in treating it as a discussion prompt.

I enjoyed watching the movie, but reading these nitpicks made me start to dislike it for the continuity issues. That's how I came to the conclusion that it doesn't help me enjoy the movie by diving into this rabbit hole, especially when it could all be irrelevant later.

EDIT 2:
However, I'm up for debating/nitpicking anything not related to...
Spoiler:
time traveling

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 15, 2019 5:25 pm UTC

The trailer for the next Spider-Man movie suggests that the mechanic under discussion may become relevant in the wider MCU after all.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby pkcommando » Wed May 15, 2019 7:19 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:The trailer for the next Spider-Man movie suggests that the mechanic under discussion may become relevant in the wider MCU after all.

Well, that specific mechanic, or
Spoiler:
Repeatedly using a mechanism that throat-punches the universe. First, twice in a month --> then 5 years later doing it twice in under an hour.

And while interviews have said - and it kinda/sorta makes sense - that the original set isn't GONE gone, just dispersed, said dispersal could still have some minor repercussions. Maybe not as cataclysmic as the Ancient One warned about, but still some outcome that took a while to be noticeable.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Wed May 15, 2019 8:29 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:The trailer for the next Spider-Man movie suggests that the mechanic under discussion may become relevant in the wider MCU after all.

Shit.
Spoiler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt9L1jCKGnE
@ 1:27 "You saying there's a multiverse?"
I don't notice anything else hinting at time-travel/multi-verse shenanigans, so...

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's a clever inside joke/troll on fans.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 15, 2019 8:47 pm UTC

Ranbot wrote:I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's a clever inside joke/troll on fans.

I've seen it suggested from readers of the comics that that character is a trickster villain who may be lying about his origins, but
Spoiler:
Nick Fury himself says that he's "from Earth, just not our Earth" and that "the snap tore a hole in our dimension" so it sounds like Fury at least believes that multiverse stuff is going on.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Ranbot wrote:I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's a clever inside joke/troll on fans.

I've seen it suggested from readers of the comics that that character is a trickster villain who may be lying about his origins, but
Spoiler:
Nick Fury himself says that he's "from Earth, just not our Earth" and that "the snap tore a hole in our dimension" so it sounds like Fury at least believes that multiverse stuff is going on.

Oops... I missed that part... Shit again.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 16, 2019 3:33 am UTC

Ranbot wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:But where's the fun in just saying that and stopping there?

If your idea of fun is trying to figure out how many angels [or superheros] can dance on the head of a pin, then by all means, continue...

...but if you value your time at all[...]


I value my time, but I also value the extended entertainment I get from this sort of nitpickery. If you don't value it, then feel free to not engage with it. Just don't tell me I can't value the nitpicking.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby speising » Thu May 16, 2019 8:15 am UTC

campy humor and melodramatic scenes are like salt and pepper. only good in moderation.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Thu May 16, 2019 1:51 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Ranbot wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:But where's the fun in just saying that and stopping there?

If your idea of fun is trying to figure out how many angels [or superheros] can dance on the head of a pin, then by all means, continue...

...but if you value your time at all[...]


I value my time, but I also value the extended entertainment I get from this sort of nitpickery. If you don't value it, then feel free to not engage with it. Just don't tell me I can't value the nitpicking.

Sorry. Of course you can do whatever makes you happy. I didn't mean to offend.

I usually enjoy nitpickery, and I read along with it eagerly at first. But this was a rare case where it was ruining a film I had enjoyed, instead of adding/extending the enjoyment. YRMV

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 16, 2019 2:33 pm UTC

Ranbot - see the Rules thread specifically regarding Moff's Law - the "Don't tell people how to enjoy shit" rule.

Some people, like rmsgrey or myself included, greatly enjoy over analyzing things to the point of shredding every bit of it due to logical inconsistencies. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we're not saying "You're an idiot if you enjoy this because...."

Move on. Let it go.
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