Police misbehavior thread

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Quizatzhaderac
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:37 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:If mental illness is then characterized as thought patterns that are contrary to reason (maybe only those that are in context sufficiently contrary to the ordinary expectations of reasonability), then all bad actions done on purpose are a consequence of mental illness (or maybe just something trending in the direction of it but not meeting that threshold yet).
It seems to me you are trying to create a unified framework to analyze all bad (aka non-rational) behaviors. That's fine, but if it's remotely complete, it has to recover several important distinctions.

Some behaviors can be changed with argument.
Some can can be changed with punishment.
Some can be changed with reinforcement.
Some can be changed with specific therapies and /or drugs.
Some can be changed by propaganda.
Some can be changed by changing political or economic circumstances.
Some behaviors can't be changed (yet, in practice, with certainty, et cetra).

If one applies these different circumstances (mistake of fact, robbery, mental illness, terrorism) They see different solutions are more obvious appropriate to different circumstances.

Socially and politically its important to maintain separate labels to avoid stereotypes.

The violent and the medicallymentally ill don't correlate, but the stereotype exists of the violent lunatic and endangers the mentally ill as people and law enforcement react to them as violent threats.

Terrorists may be members of groups with legitimate grievances (separately: those may or may not justify their actions), labeling them as mentally ill invites people to dismiss their arguments.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PAstrychef » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:45 pm UTC

please let’s get this back to police misconduct. there are many threads already discussing morality and its philosophical reality.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:please let’s get this back to police misconduct.
Okay!

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... ecution-of

A controversial sermon by a Tennessee church pastor, who is also a detective in the Knox County Sheriff’s Office, calling for the execution of LGBTQ people has prompted authorities to further investigate.

All Scripture Baptist Church pastor Grayson Fritts, who earlier this month was taken off active duty with the sheriff's department as he waits for a county buyout offer, said in an hourlong sermon that members of the LGBTQ community should be “put to death,” referring to them as “freaks” and “animals,” according to CBS 8 WVLT.

...

The Knox County Sheriff’s Office also put out a statement after reports surfaced that Fritts worked in the office. The statement said he is on paid leave until his buy-out request is processed.

“I want to be very clear that it is my responsibility to ensure equal protection to ALL citizens of Knox County, Tennessee under the law, my oath and the United States Constitution without discrimination or hesitation. Rest assured that I have and will continue to do so," Knox County Sheriff Tom Spangler said in the statement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIOeshtasE

I get sick of people trying to mischaracterise our stance on homosexuals. The purpose of this sermon this morning is to show you what we believe from the Bible about homosexuals, that this is not some kind of movement. This is not some sort of political platform. What I believe about homosexuals is straight from the Word of God and if you are a reasonable individual and you are a saved individual with the Holy Spirit living inside of you then you cannot deny what the Bible says. ... I don't think that just because someone commits the sin of sodomy, God rejects them. I believe that they commit that sin of sodomy because they are rejected, and that's what the Bible teaches. ... ... ...
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:37 pm UTC

Cops murder protect the public from a black man who was passed out in his car. At least this time, he actually had a gun on his lap... which the police specifically noted didn't have a magazine, though they noted this meant there could be a single bullet loaded in the chamber. They woke the guy up, and, well, you can guess the rest.

One of the cops involved had previously murdered protected the public from an unarmed black man who was fleeing on a bike.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:27 pm UTC

This just strikes me as just totally inadequate. These cops need two Uzi's each, and they need to send 30 cops to these suspicious circumstance calls, so they can empty 1500 rounds into these NHI perps in 2.5 seconds. However are they going to properly intimidate these murderous monsters with a pathetic 15.7 shots per second?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:26 pm UTC

https://www.kqed.org/news/11755384/exce ... e-hospital

The son of a napa state hospital police chief used excessive force when slamming a 64 year old patient's face into a wall, breaking his eye socket, and a few teeth. Other officers attempted to cover it up by arresting the patient. After the internal investigation, the department of state hospitals initially recommended firing all four officers, yet they all ended up keeping their jobs.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:50 pm UTC

Yes.
The Police are Mean Bastards.

But...Phoenix??
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/us/p ... oting.html
A department with a record number of shootings last year was shown on video aiming a gun in a shoplifting case.
Critics say officers routinely blame residents for their use of force.

They blame the people...
But, Phones have made the lies harder to believe.
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 3EZIth8koI
That is only one.
There were many phones recording.

Oh, The Crime?
Four year old walks out with a Barbie.

The Times article goes on to list excessive force and murders committed by Phoenix Police.

(jeez...) I 'get' it.
Fuck the Police.

And; I thank my Lucky Stars my skin sunburns real easy.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:29 pm UTC

Addams, I'm not claiming the actions of the police are justified here, or that race isn't a factor, but the situation isn't as straightforward as that article depicts it. The events leading up to where the video starts likely played a part. An article I saw from a local news agency (that I will try to look up later) said that officers were already at the store for another reason when an employee spotted the theft of the doll and asked them to stop the family. Then when the family saw the police approaching, they took off and there was a brief chase to where the incident was filmed.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:47 pm UTC

:roll:
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SDK » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:59 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Addams, I'm not claiming the actions of the police are justified here, or that race isn't a factor, but the situation isn't as straightforward as that article depicts it. The events leading up to where the video starts likely played a part. An article I saw from a local news agency (that I will try to look up later) said that officers were already at the store for another reason when an employee spotted the theft of the doll and asked them to stop the family. Then when the family saw the police approaching, they took off and there was a brief chase to where the incident was filmed.

Hi slinches! Welcome back.

That video's pretty disturbing no matter what happened beforehand. "I am gonna put a cap in your fucking head!" is not something a police officer should ever say... and that's just in the first 20 seconds. The way he was yelling in that guy's ear while he had him pressed up against the car already? Yeesh.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
Addams, I'm not claiming the actions of the police are justified here, or that race isn't a factor, but the situation isn't as straightforward as that article depicts it. The events leading up to where the video starts likely played a part. An article I saw from a local news agency (that I will try to look up later) said that officers were already at the store for another reason when an employee spotted the theft of the doll and asked them to stop the family. Then when the family saw the police approaching, they took off and there was a brief chase to where the incident was filmed.

Fuck you for trying to excuse that kind of behavior even a little bit. You say you're not claiming the actions are justified, but then you write a paragraph trying to justify it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:34 pm UTC

Hey, slinches! Welcome back.

I don't think that this situation was about handling the reported theft of a small doll from a dollar store, by small child well below the age of reason. If so, the situation would have been handled much more gently, as a teachable moment, in partnership with the parents. Even if it was about somewhat larger shoplifting on the part of the adults in the group, and their refusal to stop when the police wanted to detain them, the response was disproportionate to the offense, considering the risk to the children.

This was about multiple officers in multiple patrol cars escalating a situation to defend the principle that when a police officer tells you to do something, no matter how unreasonable (e.g., when you are pregnant and holding a baby), and you do not instantly comply, his ego--sorry, official authority--requires a blizzard of hysterical eff-bombs and death threats, drawn weapons, and calls for backup.

It's not unreasonable to conclude that the color of the family's skin had something to do with the disproportionality of the officers' response.

At least two of the officers were out of their flippin' minds with rage over what should have been a very minor incident. They need mental health counseling. And probably an extended leave of absence, if not outright dismissal.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Personally, I think that the deployment of eff-bombs is unhelpful in other interactions, too, such as in Internet discussion threads, but I'm aware that this is a minority opinion.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:15 pm UTC

Did I even so much as imply the cops were justified? Nope, not at all. I was calling out the national news coverage for leaving out relevant context, not excusing anyone's behavior. The situation is bad enough to be newsworthy without sensationalizing things by selectively reporting the facts.

This isn't the article that I had seen prior, but apparently some of those details came from the police report.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/06/14/phoenix-police-release-report-controversial-response-shoplifting-incident/1461089001/

Thanks for the welcomes back, from at least most here

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:38 am UTC

Gee, Slinches;
It's nice to have you back.
I don't want to argue with you and scare you away.

Buuutt....It seems the Police Reports always blame the victims.
This has happened so many times in Phoenix it IS a problem.

The rest of us can't do much, but we can 'blame' the armed bullies.
It is right and proper to recognize bullies when we see them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:23 am UTC

Addams, I don't think we have to worry about an argument here. I agree with you. The police were way out of line and ended up seriously escalating a situation near the point of deadly violence that didn't need to be.

I just wanted to bring a little additional context that I was aware of, being from Phoenix and seeing a few local stories about it. I wasn't out to assign blame or excuse anyone.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:35 am UTC

Oh...Okay. ...yet...
From what I understand it is like living in a separate and different land if you are White and in a 'nice' neighborhood.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:47 am UTC

slinches wrote:Did I even so much as imply the cops were justified? Nope, not at all. I was calling out the national news coverage for leaving out relevant context, not excusing anyone's behavior. The situation is bad enough to be newsworthy without sensationalizing things by selectively reporting the facts.

This isn't the article that I had seen prior, but apparently some of those details came from the police report.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/06/14/phoenix-police-release-report-controversial-response-shoplifting-incident/1461089001/

Thanks for the welcomes back, from at least most here


ohhhh, the details were from the report that the police themselves wrote to justify their violent abuse huh? how silly of us to watch the video and observe for ourselves how the police were behaving towards completely and entirely nonviolent individuals. what fools we to trust our lying eyes when we should have believed the police. thank gd slinches is here to explain this for us.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:36 am UTC

You have information you didn't have before. You're welcome.

The tone you are taking is ridiculous. It's like you want an adversary to deride and attack.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:50 pm UTC

cops lie. like, constantly and always, and specifically in these cases of abusing black people, specifically to justify their abuses. in so many of these high profile cases, at the time it happens smarmy apologists turn up to be like oh, i'm sure we don't have the full story, wait for all the facts, you'll see there's more to it and in fact these black people were doing something that excuses/explains/justifies their death threats/manhandling/beating/murder.

and then later it turns out correct! we didn't have the whole story because more video footage will get released that the cops have been holding on to for years proving that they were lying liars who lied, that their testimonies were false, that they were withholding evidence that proved them to be even worse murderers than was initially thought with even less justification than they initially gave, and mysteriously all the smarmy "just wait for the facts" people are nowhere to be found because every single time what y'all are actually saying isn't "wait for the facts", it is, "i desperately want an excuse for the abuse and murder of black people".

it's not like this is the first time we've heard this particular tired song from you either slinches (although that last time was exceptionally choice since it came with a grace note of "i literally haven't even seen the footage myself, i'm just assuming there was more reason because i can't possibly believe in the innocence of black people, and also here's some condescending advice about How Not To Get Yourself Murdered By Police as if this murdered man did not in fact comply already and was then murdered for doing so.)

anyway, we hear this same exact thing every time and guess what, i don't have to have patience with it. i watch my people abused and murdered daily, i'm frequently on the receiving end of the same abuse, and literally every time people like you crop up with the same mealymouthed "oh but surely there's another side to the story..." "i'm just saying there's more context it, why are you overreacting"

we literally have the video that we can watch and see how egregious this situation is. nothing you are saying adds to this in any way.

(also, by the way? these specific, exact, cops, in this specific, exact, incident, have already been caught lying in their initial reports. you're welcome.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:25 pm UTC

Sorry I didn't display a sufficient level of hatred while agreeing with you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:25 pm UTC

slinches wrote:It's like you want an adversary to deride and attack.

When you're saying the same things police apologists say, and are on record in this very thread making previous excuses for police brutality, it's not actually ridiculous to react as though you're being adversarial.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:34 pm UTC

CNN on the case


I feel like this is the sort of thing that could be solved if weed and prostitution were legal. Something to get those officers to chill the fuck out.

I just envisioned some sort of parody dystopia where drugs and prostitution were illegal but tolerated by the police force so long as they got free drugs and sex, then realized that's uncomfortably close to the current system we have.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:47 pm UTC

Cops have an absurdly high partner and spousal abuse rate compared to the general population, so I'm pretty sure access to sex isn't the problem here.

Image
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:CNN on the case


I feel like this is the sort of thing that could be solved if weed and prostitution were legal. Something to get those officers to chill the fuck out.

I just envisioned some sort of parody dystopia where drugs and prostitution were illegal but tolerated by the police force so long as they got free drugs and sex, then realized that's uncomfortably close to the current system we have.
The only way for me to feel better about Phoenix is for All eleven Police involved to be InSide Jail as the investigation is conducted.

As each one is cleared, he can be released.
In the end there will be a few that will stay.

And; Stay for a L-O-N-G time.
If a civilian committed those crimes, what would they be charged with??

Assault and Battery and at least one Firearms Violation.
If we started locking up criminal Police we might feel safer.

Oh...Yes.
Gmalivuk, you are correct.

The dang Police (not all) have become worse than Wasps.

We all hate Wasps.
Wasps are Bastards,

If sex work is legal then sex workers can ask for protection.
That way we are all safer.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:09 pm UTC

Do you have a cite for the domestic abuse issue? Wouldnt surprise me if true, but interested to know hard numbers, and whether it's caused by the stress of the job or just the type of person who specifically goes into a career that allows you to get paid to beat up people who had it coming are a danger to the public.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:34 pm UTC

Departments Are Slow To Police Their Own Abusers (The New York Times, 2013)

With no central reporting system and little definitive research, there is no accurate way to measure the problem — how often officers abuse their domestic partners and how severely abusers are punished. In some instances, researchers have resorted to asking officers to confess how often they had committed abuse. One such study, published in 2000, said one in 10 officers at seven police agencies admitted that they had “slapped, punched or otherwise injured” a spouse or domestic partner.

A broader view emerges in Florida, which has one of the nation’s most robust open records laws. An analysis by The Times of more than 29,000 credible complaints of misconduct against police and corrections officers there strongly suggests that domestic abuse had been underreported to the state for years.

After reporting requirements were tightened in 2007, requiring fingerprints of arrested officers to be automatically reported to the agency that licenses them, the number of domestic abuse cases more than doubled — from 293 in the previous five years to 775 over the next five.


Why it's hard to get good data on domestic abuse by cops:

Dottie Davis, a former police officer in Indiana, had an insider’s view of why stopping domestic violence in police households can be so difficult.

When Ms. Davis reported that her domestic partner, also a police officer, had violently attacked her, she said she realized quickly that the responding officers would do little or nothing to protect her.

“They worked with him, and he stood up and shook both their hands and began to apologize immediately, and so I knew right then that not much was going to be done,” said Ms. Davis, who retired recently as deputy police chief in Fort Wayne after 32 years on the force. Once her abuser assured the officers that he would take care of her injuries, she said, they agreed not to report the incident and said they would “swear the dispatchers to secrecy.”

Ms. Davis said that when she admitted being battered, “I was ostracized by my co-workers because you don’t rat on another cop.” She added, “Even though his behavior was criminal and we were arresting other people for it, because he was a police officer, he was exempted.”

Staying silent in the hope that the abuse stops is rarely a good option because the attacks, without some type of intervention, will usually continue, experts say. But the alternative carries its own set of risks.

“A victim calls 911 — well, guess what? Their statement is right on the screen for every fellow officer and every friend of that officer to read and to make a call and let him know what she just told the dispatcher,” said Ms. Davis, now the head of security for the Fort Wayne schools. In addition, abusive officers can use police computer systems to track their victims.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:40 pm UTC

In addition, abusive officers can use police computer systems to track their victims.
AHH!!
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Spoiler:
Lock them up!
Lock them up!
Lock them up!

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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:06 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Sorry I didn't display a sufficient level of hatred while agreeing with you.
It isn't a lack of sufficient hatred that's the problem; no one needs (or wants!) you to engage in performative outrage. The problem is you're pulling out Ye Olde Classic: "It's Really About Ethics In Gaming Journalism."

"Listen, I'm not downplaying the fact that Anita Sarkesian can't go out in public without being worried someone might recognize her, follow her home, then brutally rape and murder her -- just so they can upload a video of it to 4chan... but I just want to point out that she gave Aliens: Colonial Marines a 7 out of 10. It clearly deserves no higher than a 5. I mean, whatever happened to ethics in journalism?"

"LIsten, I'm not downplaying the fact that the police pulled guns on an unarmed family and threatened to 'cap' a pregnant mother while she was holding a child -- all because someone told them her little girl might have stolen a barbie doll... but I just want to point out that the media failed to mention that the family might have tried to evade the police (the ones who later threatened to murder them). I mean, whatever happened to ethics in journalism?"

Wanting to evade the cops who are going to threaten to murder you in front of your children isn't unusual; it's not even an important detail. Acting like it is (and claiming that leaving it out is "sensationalism") reveals a certain (likely unconscious!) bias on your part. I don't think you're doing this intentionally, but this is an old, very tiring trope: "I'm not saying this isn't bad, because it is. But it's also just a little more complicated than it looks..."

Nope! It really isn't.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:59 pm UTC

Understanding the chain of events that led up to the situation in the video doesn't make the officers actions any less bad. We already agree that what's on the video is inexcusable. The details aren't important in recognizing that. But once we have recognized it, the details and context become important in understanding how to prevent future incidents. What is the proper procedure in this scenario? Which policies were violated, should there be new ones, what kind of training is needed for police in general related to this? Did the officers involved get that training? Is this just one bad cop or is there a more systemic issue that hasn't been addressed? What does that systemic issue look like and what do we do about it? The details of what went on before the video are pertinent to all of those questions. And we don't fix anything by dismissing them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:39 pm UTC

Do you understand that what you provided is not the chain of events that led up to the situation. It is what the police claimed to be the chain of events that led up to the situation. That source has a definite incentive to lie covering their own asses. I mean it would be nice if there were video of the events leading up to it so we could fact check the report but...

During the encounter, the arresting cops turned off their dash and body cameras


I'm sure the video footage they deliberately didn't capture 100% backs up their version of events.
Last edited by idonno on Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:42 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Understanding the chain of events that led up to the situation in the video doesn't make the officers actions any less bad. We already agree that what's on the video is inexcusable. The details aren't important in recognizing that. But once we have recognized it, the details and context become important in understanding how to prevent future incidents. What is the proper procedure in this scenario? Which policies were violated, should there be new ones, what kind of training is needed for police in general related to this? Did the officers involved get that training? Is this just one bad cop or is there a more systemic issue that hasn't been addressed? What does that systemic issue look like and what do we do about it? The details of what went on before the video are pertinent to all of those questions. And we don't fix anything by dismissing them.

Aren't most situations where the accused runs, you get better outcomes if you let the kids go for now, and pick them up later when they go home? Sure you lose out on instant karma/revenge fantasies, but then you can calmly serve them a ticket later.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:47 pm UTC

gosh it would be nice if there were a 173 page thread where the rest of us have been talking about if it is One Bad cop or... if there is... a wider systemic issue... that would be amazing if this topic had been addressed literally anywhere before slinches showed up to let us know that there was more to these cops abusing this family...
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Aren't most situations where the accused runs, you get better outcomes if you let the kids go for now, and pick them up later when they go home? Sure you lose out on instant karma/revenge fantasies, but then you can calmly serve them a ticket later.

That makes sense. I'll look into what I can about whether that is department practice here or not. If it isn't, it should be.

idonno wrote:Do you understand that what you provided is not the chain of events that led up to the situation. It is what the police claimed to be the chain of events that led up to the situation. That source has a definite incentive to lie covering their own asses. I mean it would be nice if there were video of the events leading up to it so we could fact check the report but...

During the encounter, the arresting cops turned off their dash and body cameras


I'm sure the video footage they deliberately didn't capture 100% backs up their version of events.

I was aware after reading the other article that quoted its source (after my first post about this). That does change how those statements should be interpreted and they should not just be accepted at face value. Even when they aren't outright lying, police use their reports to justify their actions and selectively choose the facts they include. That doesn't mean it should be entirely disregarded, though. It's one account that needs to be weighed against the other accounts available up to where the video starts and we can interpret the actions ourselves. That the officers turned off their cameras is certainly suspicious and reduces the credibility of their reports, so we should probably only consider those items that are common between the police report and the account of the family as accurate outside of what's in the video.

natraj wrote:gosh it would be nice if there were a 173 page thread where the rest of us have been talking about if it is One Bad cop or... if there is... a wider systemic issue... that would be amazing if this topic had been addressed literally anywhere before slinches showed up to let us know that there was more to these cops abusing this family...

Why don't we continue that discussion rather than making snarky comments that don't add anything?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:17 pm UTC

slinches wrote:I was aware after reading the other article that quoted its source (after my first post about this).

2nd post wrote:Nope, not at all. I was calling out the national news coverage for leaving out relevant context

Where you are aware of the source and yet are attacking an article, which specifically points out how untrustworthy this departments police reports are, for leaving out relevant context. This means that you are assume a completely unverified assertions by the police in a report that contains certifiable lies are providing accurate and news worthy context about the event.
3rd post wrote:I just wanted to bring a little additional context that I was aware of, being from Phoenix and seeing a few local stories about it.
Asserting that this is context for the event with absolutely no credible evidence since the source is still from a report that contains lies by a department that is known for lying in reports.
4rth post wrote:You have information you didn't have before. You're welcome.

Claiming that this is information of some value in judging the events.
6th post wrote:Understanding the chain of events that led up to the situation in the video doesn't make the officers actions any less bad.

Asserting that the completely untrustworthy police report helps us understand the chain of events.
tth post wrote:It's one account that needs to be weighed against the other accounts available up to where the video starts and we can interpret the actions ourselves.
When a known liar tells you something and it is in their best interest to lie to you, the weight you should assign to the story is 0.

Do you understand how this insistence that informational value exists in a document that lacks all credibility and trying to use it this way makes you sound. Maybe you are just trying to figure out how to make things better but I would suggest you start by disregarding hearsay from sources that have proven many times to be completely untrustworthy. Look at the events. The police disabled their cameras, threatened to shoot someone in the head in front of their children, and physically assaulted a pregnant woman. All of this was over an allegation of $2 worth of theft. They will almost certainly keep their jobs. You have employees who are out of control and rather than terminate their employment, the organization covers for them. This is not an issue of fixing some policy and/or training issues. The entire organization needs an overhaul.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:44 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
natraj wrote:gosh it would be nice if there were a 173 page thread where the rest of us have been talking about if it is One Bad cop or... if there is... a wider systemic issue... that would be amazing if this topic had been addressed literally anywhere before slinches showed up to let us know that there was more to these cops abusing this family...

Why don't we continue that discussion rather than making snarky comments that don't add anything?

Because all of your apologizing for bad police behavior is one long snarky comment on the legitimate grievances of an entire population. Because we can have a discussion even if the tone isn’t pleasing to you. Because you didn’t see the value in being told to reread the thread when you left your ass hanging out.
Why do we need to see if someone did something offensive to the officers before they threatened to shoot a pregnant woman with a toddler? Unless she had gone on a rampage (which surely would have been the focus of the coverage), what could she have done to warrant that response?
It has already been established that there is systemic abuse by police of minority people. Every cop that thinks defending bad behavior on the part of any officer is paramount is complicit in that abuse. To be arguing that there may be extenuating circumstances is disingenuous at best. We already know about the problems of poor training, of the excessive militarization of police forces, of racial profiling and discrimination. If there is a police force where there aren’t “a few bad apples” I’ve never heard of it. If folks stopped leaving off the end of the aphorism it would be helpful-a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:52 pm UTC

When you have a single bad apple, you toss the apple. When you have multiple bad apples, you chop down the tree. When you have bad apples on every tree, you burn the orchard and replant. When you keep getting bad apples regardless, you grow peaches instead.

In order...
Get rid of the bad officer
Get rid of the bad branch
Get rid of the entire department
Redesign the police system entirely.

More and more I'm thinking we should start pruning bad branches. See if cops stop defending obvious problematic officers when it hits their paycheck too.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:10 pm UTC

idonno wrote:I mean it would be nice if there were video of the events leading up to it so we could fact check the report but...

During the encounter, the arresting cops turned off their dash and body cameras


Did they? The only source I see for that is a tweet by Qasim Rasheed, Esq., quoted in this article natraj posted. And that tweet appears directly below a video from ABC15 which claims, around the 1:45 mark, that neither officer had a body camera or dash cam. That would make more sense of the Mayor's comment about accelerating the implementation of body cameras, since that would be irrelevant if the officers in question already had them and simply turned them off.

Is there another source claiming they had body/dash cams and turned them off?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:28 pm UTC

idonno wrote:Do you understand how this insistence that informational value exists in a document that lacks all credibility and trying to use it this way makes you sound.

What I don't understand is how dismissing any information entirely is useful, regardless of the credibility. There is always informational value in everything the people involved share about the event. That doesn't mean we have to believe that any of it is true without independent corroboration. If nothing else, every statement is an opportunity for concrete evidence of falsehoods and may reveal underlying biases or motives.
This is not an issue of fixing some policy and/or training issues. The entire organization needs an overhaul.

Even if you had a ground up overhaul, the new organization would need effective policies and training to prevent these kinds of events.

arbiteroftruth wrote:Is there another source claiming they had body/dash cams and turned them off?

This article indicates the officers weren't wearing body cams
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/06/17/phoenix-police-controversial-shoplifting-arrest-no-body-cameras/1474568001/
I don't know about dash cams. I would have thought the police cruisers would have them. There's a bunch of information about body cam policy in the operations orders, but it doesn't seem to mention vehicle mounted cameras at all.
https://www.phoenix.gov/policesite/Documents/operations_orders.pdf

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:11 pm UTC

slinches wrote:What I don't understand is how dismissing any information entirely is useful, regardless of the credibility. There is always informational value in everything the people involved share about the event. That doesn't mean we have to believe that any of it is true without independent corroboration. If nothing else, every statement is an opportunity for concrete evidence of falsehoods and may reveal underlying biases or motives.
But this isn't true: Dependent on context and presentation, it's possible for information to actually have a negative effect! I'll give you an example: There used to be a set of plaques at Auschwitz placed by the Russians that described "four million Jews" dying there. This is an exaggeration (the number is likely somewhere closer in the vicinity of one million).

Now, imagine we're discussing the Holocaust. Imagine we're discussing the enormity of the death-toll at Auschwitz ("somewhere near a million people died!"). Imagine, then, you come into that conversation and point out that there were plaques describing "four million dead", and how this was ridiculous sensationalism and an example of government propaganda.

There's definitely a time and a place to talk about the Russian plaques; over-sensationalism of the Holocaust is (and can be!) an issue. But you need to take in account the way you're presenting this, and the context in which you're presenting it in -- because dependent on that context, it can come off like an attempt at Holocaust denial (or "Holocaust skepticism"). Particularly since these plaques were historically used as evidence for Holocaust denial.

(Don't worry; I'm not trying to imply you're some sort of Holocaust denier! I'm just using this as an example to demonstrate how, dependent on context, adding more information to a discussion can actually have a negative impact)

The body-cam thing arbiteroftruth brought up is a good example of how to introduce these things to the discussion in a way that's more positive. Notice arbiteroftruth didn't frame this as whether or not it changed the situation -- they just asked for verification on whether or not it occurred. I think your post would have gone over much differently had you framed it similarly: "Hey, obviously this changes nothing about what went down, but I'm just curious -- local reports are mentioning a different order of events..."

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:55 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I think your post would have gone over much differently had you framed it similarly: "Hey, obviously this changes nothing about what went down, but I'm just curious -- local reports are mentioning a different order of events..."

Isn't that essentially what I said? Maybe there's a little difference in emphasis, but I thought I was making it clear that the post was trying to provide the information from the local article I read (now known to be from a questionable source).
Spoiler:
slinches wrote:Addams, I'm not claiming the actions of the police are justified here, or that race isn't a factor, but the situation isn't as straightforward as that article depicts it. The events leading up to where the video starts likely played a part. An article I saw from a local news agency (that I will try to look up later) said that officers were already at the store for another reason when an employee spotted the theft of the doll and asked them to stop the family. Then when the family saw the police approaching, they took off and there was a brief chase to where the incident was filmed.



The Great Hippo wrote:Dependent on context and presentation, it's possible for information to actually have a negative effect! I'll give you an example: There used to be a set of plaques at Auschwitz placed by the Russians that described "four million Jews" dying there. This is an exaggeration (the number is likely somewhere closer in the vicinity of one million).

Now, imagine we're discussing the Holocaust. Imagine we're discussing the enormity of the death-toll at Auschwitz ("somewhere near a million people died!"). Imagine, then, you come into that conversation and point out that there were plaques describing "four million dead", and how this was ridiculous sensationalism and an example of government propaganda.

I get that. Though, it's not the information itself that has a negative effect. It's the use of it to mislead. In that example it's using a known case of exaggeration to imply that the actual number is an exaggeration as well.

I don't think I did that here, but I can see how some may read it that way if that's what they wanted to see.


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